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	<title>Comments on: Women and the Brehon Laws</title>
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	<link>http://dervala.net/2003/08/29/women-and-the-brehon-laws/</link>
	<description>A love letter</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 17 May 2012 09:16:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Geoffrey E. Harris</title>
		<link>http://dervala.net/2003/08/29/women-and-the-brehon-laws/comment-page-1/#comment-102</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoffrey E. Harris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2003 22:37:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dervala.net/?p=434#comment-102</guid>
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi.<br />
An excellent site on Irish history is <a href="http://www.ireland.org/irl_hist/hist1.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.ireland.org/irl_hist/hist1.htm</a>.</p>
<p>Some sites on Breton Law are the following:<br />
<a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02753a.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02753a.htm</a>,<br />
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/2897/celtic2.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/2897/celtic2.html</a>,<br />
and <a href="http://ua_tuathal.tripod.com/testdefault.html" rel="nofollow">http://ua_tuathal.tripod.com/testdefault.html</a>.</p>
<p>From <a href="http://www.ireland.org/irl_hist/hist8.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.ireland.org/irl_hist/hist8.htm</a> here is justice:</p>
<p>From his exile in Connaught, Cormac [Mac Art,who reigned in the third century AD] a green youth , had returned to Tara, where, unrecognised, he was engaged herding sheep for a poor widow. Now one of the sheep broke into the queen’s garden, and ate the queen’s vegetables. And King Lugaid, equally angry as his queen, after he heard the case, ordered that for penalty on the widow, her sheep should be forfeit to the queen. To the amazement of Lugaid’s court, the herd boy who had been watching the proceedings with anxiety, arose, and, facing the king, said, &#8220;Unjust is thy award, O king, for, because thy queen hath lost a few vegetables, thou wouldst deprive the poor widow of her livelihood?&#8221; When the king recovered from his astoundment, he looked contemptuously at the lad, asking scathingly: &#8220;And what, O wise herd boy would be thy just award?&#8221; The herd boy, not one little bit disconcerted, answered him &#8220;My award would be that the wool of the sheep should pay for the vegetables the sheep has eaten &#8211; because both the wool and the green things will grow again, and both parties have forgotten their hurt.&#8221; And the wonderful wisdom of the judgement drew the applause of the astounded court. But Lugaid exclaimed in alarm: &#8220;It is the judgement of a King.&#8221; </p>
<p>Am a California and about a quarter Scott here.</p>
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		<title>By: Dervala</title>
		<link>http://dervala.net/2003/08/29/women-and-the-brehon-laws/comment-page-1/#comment-101</link>
		<dc:creator>Dervala</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:47:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dervala.net/?p=434#comment-101</guid>
		<description>Oddly enough, I think it coexisted very well with Christianity, at least the Celtic Catholic church, which despite the charmless St. Kevin flinging women off mountains was a pretty good organization. The trouble came later when the Celtic Catholic church merged with the Roman Catholic church. Still, even if they'd had the sense to stay separate, like the Eastern Orthodox churches, less-enlighted English law and conquest would have finished off women's rights anyway. It's very sad.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oddly enough, I think it coexisted very well with Christianity, at least the Celtic Catholic church, which despite the charmless St. Kevin flinging women off mountains was a pretty good organization. The trouble came later when the Celtic Catholic church merged with the Roman Catholic church. Still, even if they&#8217;d had the sense to stay separate, like the Eastern Orthodox churches, less-enlighted English law and conquest would have finished off women&#8217;s rights anyway. It&#8217;s very sad.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://dervala.net/2003/08/29/women-and-the-brehon-laws/comment-page-1/#comment-100</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Sep 2003 10:15:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dervala.net/?p=434#comment-100</guid>
		<description>I'm half-way through "Granuaile", Ann Chamber's book on Grace O'Malley, and there is quite a bit on Brehon and pre-Brehon law. It's amazing how egalitarian the Celts were.

Of course, along came Christianity and most of that went out the window. What was left was finished off by Henry VIII and Elizabeth I .

/John


PS, the "comely maidens" quote is a misquotation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m half-way through &#8220;Granuaile&#8221;, Ann Chamber&#8217;s book on Grace O&#8217;Malley, and there is quite a bit on Brehon and pre-Brehon law. It&#8217;s amazing how egalitarian the Celts were.</p>
<p>Of course, along came Christianity and most of that went out the window. What was left was finished off by Henry <span class="caps">VIII</span> and Elizabeth I .</p>
<p>/John</p>
<p>PS, the &#8220;comely maidens&#8221; quote is a misquotation.</p>
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		<title>By: Dervala</title>
		<link>http://dervala.net/2003/08/29/women-and-the-brehon-laws/comment-page-1/#comment-99</link>
		<dc:creator>Dervala</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2003 19:00:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dervala.net/?p=434#comment-99</guid>
		<description>Gabriel: thanks for the link. I liked [Irish journalist John Waters' earlier book] Jiving at the Crossroads a lot, though the odd Irish Times column I've seen of his since then seems to indicate he went a bit nuts after he went out with/broke up with Sinead (and wouldn't we all?) I'll have to find a copy of this one, as I'm very interested in our tendency to swallow our own myths. 

I've usually been reluctant to comment on Ireland much. I haven't lived there since college, so who am I to talk about it? The country has changed enough in nine years that unfamiliarity jars me when I go home (though perhaps the distance helps me see the changes more quickly, too). 

The "comely maidens" speech example is a good one; yes, I believed that was the language he used, and it's interesting Waters claims something different. But what is true, and disturbing to me, is that the Catholic Church's influence was enshrined in the Irish constitution from the start. I'm all for freedom of religion. Just separate any church from my state, please!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gabriel: thanks for the link. I liked [Irish journalist John Waters&#8217; earlier book] Jiving at the Crossroads a lot, though the odd Irish Times column I&#8217;ve seen of his since then seems to indicate he went a bit nuts after he went out with/broke up with Sinead (and wouldn&#8217;t we all?) I&#8217;ll have to find a copy of this one, as I&#8217;m very interested in our tendency to swallow our own myths. </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve usually been reluctant to comment on Ireland much. I haven&#8217;t lived there since college, so who am I to talk about it? The country has changed enough in nine years that unfamiliarity jars me when I go home (though perhaps the distance helps me see the changes more quickly, too). </p>
<p>The &#8220;comely maidens&#8221; speech example is a good one; yes, I believed that was the language he used, and it&#8217;s interesting Waters claims something different. But what is true, and disturbing to me, is that the Catholic Church&#8217;s influence was enshrined in the Irish constitution from the start. I&#8217;m all for freedom of religion. Just separate any church from my state, please!</p>
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		<title>By: Dervala</title>
		<link>http://dervala.net/2003/08/29/women-and-the-brehon-laws/comment-page-1/#comment-98</link>
		<dc:creator>Dervala</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2003 18:41:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dervala.net/?p=434#comment-98</guid>
		<description>J: I think you're absolutely right that Irishmen are well capable of according respect where it's due, especially when the setting is a familiar one(like your engineering colleague example: capable co-workers get respect). 

My own tedious experiences were usually in more casual or unfamiliar settings, like (groan) networking evenings for Irish tech expats in New York, where women just could not break into the conversation once it turned to business issues. Or say, the time some visiting IDA representatives who were selling their services to me and my boss asked me for a cup of coffee as we were about to get down to the technical discussion! (They also couldn't believe an English graduate could have a career other than teaching or journalism, but that's a another beef, and a more broadly European one...)

That said, we've come a long way, don't you think?  You're better qualified than me to assess that, since I've never held a grown-up job in Ireland.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>J: I think you&#8217;re absolutely right that Irishmen are well capable of according respect where it&#8217;s due, especially when the setting is a familiar one(like your engineering colleague example: capable co-workers get respect). </p>
<p>My own tedious experiences were usually in more casual or unfamiliar settings, like (groan) networking evenings for Irish tech expats in New York, where women just could not break into the conversation once it turned to business issues. Or say, the time some visiting <span class="caps">IDA</span> representatives who were selling their services to me and my boss asked me for a cup of coffee as we were about to get down to the technical discussion! (They also couldn&#8217;t believe an English graduate could have a career other than teaching or journalism, but that&#8217;s a another beef, and a more broadly European one&#8230;)</p>
<p>That said, we&#8217;ve come a long way, don&#8217;t you think?  You&#8217;re better qualified than me to assess that, since I&#8217;ve never held a grown-up job in Ireland.</p>
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		<title>By: Justin</title>
		<link>http://dervala.net/2003/08/29/women-and-the-brehon-laws/comment-page-1/#comment-97</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:23:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dervala.net/?p=434#comment-97</guid>
		<description></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;I found Irishmen visiting the US, even young ones, to be the worst offenders when it comes to patronising female technology workers (especially those of us who don’t have engineering degrees—and they are quick to ask).&#8217;</p>
<p>!! Get a grip, lads.  I hope that doesn&#8217;t still apply&#8230;</p>
<p>In one company I worked for, one of the key software engineers was a woman &#8212; and she got lots of respect, as was due.  That was in Dublin though.</p>
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		<title>By: Gabriel</title>
		<link>http://dervala.net/2003/08/29/women-and-the-brehon-laws/comment-page-1/#comment-96</link>
		<dc:creator>Gabriel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:11:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dervala.net/?p=434#comment-96</guid>
		<description>Nerdish point: According to John Waters (Sinead's erstwhile):

"There is nothing in the speech about comely maidens, or dancing at the crossroads. And yet, most Irish people would stake their lives on the belief that it contains a mess of verbiage about both these concepts.  Although the phrase 'comely maidens' did appear in the official text, the recording of the speech as broadcast has de Valera saying 'happy maidens'."

This is in the badly titled 'An Intelligent Person's Guide to Modern Ireland' - I have no idea if he's right (nor am I arguing with the general assessment in your post), but it's quite a thought provoking book on the stories Ireland tells to itself (and we expats tell to others).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nerdish point: According to John Waters (Sinead&#8217;s erstwhile):</p>
<p>&#8220;There is nothing in the speech about comely maidens, or dancing at the crossroads. And yet, most Irish people would stake their lives on the belief that it contains a mess of verbiage about both these concepts.  Although the phrase &#8216;comely maidens&#8217; did appear in the official text, the recording of the speech as broadcast has de Valera saying &#8216;happy maidens&#8217;.&#8221;</p>
<p>This is in the badly titled &#8216;An Intelligent Person&#8217;s Guide to Modern Ireland&#8217; &#8211; I have no idea if he&#8217;s right (nor am I arguing with the general assessment in your post), but it&#8217;s quite a thought provoking book on the stories Ireland tells to itself (and we expats tell to others).</p>
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