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	<title>Comments on: Strong Language</title>
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	<link>http://dervala.net/2005/06/20/strong-language/</link>
	<description>A love letter</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 31 Jul 2010 19:09:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Pike Rover</title>
		<link>http://dervala.net/2005/06/20/strong-language/comment-page-1/#comment-1230</link>
		<dc:creator>Pike Rover</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jul 2005 19:56:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dervala.net/?p=707#comment-1230</guid>
		<description>If you can't dazzle them with brilliance...Baffle them with bullshit!
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you can&#8217;t dazzle them with brilliance&#8230;Baffle them with bullshit!</p>
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		<title>By: Sara Mitchell</title>
		<link>http://dervala.net/2005/06/20/strong-language/comment-page-1/#comment-1229</link>
		<dc:creator>Sara Mitchell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jul 2005 10:49:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dervala.net/?p=707#comment-1229</guid>
		<description>You are right about the use of passive voice in 
other languages. Active voice is considered 
extremely rude in some cultures. I don't know
this for fact, but have been told that this 
is true for many asian cultures.

I am a technical writer so much of what I 
write must be very clear and precise. Every 
class on technical writing (at least in the US)
stresses active voice as the best solution. 
Many out-and-out suggest never using passive
voice. 

Professionally, I do use it sometimes. There are 
rare occasions when rewriting something into
active voice makes it longer and less useful to 
the current task or purpose of what I'm writing. 

I'd also like to comment on the marketing vs. 
clear, short writing. What I was taught, and
try very hard to follow, is that good writing
fits the audience and the purpose they will 
use the information for. 

If the purpose is marketing, then the point is
to convince the audience which is much more
about emotions than about clear, sensible 
reality. If the point is for an academic to 
review and become interested in a new thesis, 
then the language must be comfortable for 
the academic even if that seems jargon filled
and silly to me. If the point is for a user
to be able to use software to accomplish a 
goal, then it must both fit the user's 
actual goal (sometimes hard to know) and 
be understandable to the user. 

That said, short lucid writing that fits the 
purpose and audience is always better. It's 
also rare and to be enjoyed deeply when 
you encounter it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are right about the use of passive voice in <br />
other languages. Active voice is considered <br />
extremely rude in some cultures. I don&#8217;t know<br />
this for fact, but have been told that this <br />
is true for many asian cultures.</p>
<p>I am a technical writer so much of what I <br />
write must be very clear and precise. Every <br />
class on technical writing (at least in the US)<br />
stresses active voice as the best solution. <br />
Many out-and-out suggest never using passive<br />
voice. </p>
<p>Professionally, I do use it sometimes. There are <br />
rare occasions when rewriting something into<br />
active voice makes it longer and less useful to <br />
the current task or purpose of what I&#8217;m writing. </p>
<p>I&#8217;d also like to comment on the marketing vs. <br />
clear, short writing. What I was taught, and<br />
try very hard to follow, is that good writing<br />
fits the audience and the purpose they will <br />
use the information for. </p>
<p>If the purpose is marketing, then the point is<br />
to convince the audience which is much more<br />
about emotions than about clear, sensible <br />
reality. If the point is for an academic to <br />
review and become interested in a new thesis, <br />
then the language must be comfortable for <br />
the academic even if that seems jargon filled<br />
and silly to me. If the point is for a user<br />
to be able to use software to accomplish a <br />
goal, then it must both fit the user&#8217;s <br />
actual goal (sometimes hard to know) and <br />
be understandable to the user. </p>
<p>That said, short lucid writing that fits the <br />
purpose and audience is always better. It&#8217;s <br />
also rare and to be enjoyed deeply when <br />
you encounter it.</p>
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		<title>By: Lillian</title>
		<link>http://dervala.net/2005/06/20/strong-language/comment-page-1/#comment-1228</link>
		<dc:creator>Lillian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jul 2005 03:52:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dervala.net/?p=707#comment-1228</guid>
		<description>Maybe someone can advise on this one:

Most technical writing, especially instruction manuals, should be written in the active voice to avoid confusion.  For example "Check the checkbox", instead of "The check box should be checked" (by you in this step? or should be like that when you got to that step? if it isn't, do you have to go back a step?)

A technical writer I worked with would not use the active voice because she said it sounded rude.  Her native language was not English - is the active/passive voice used differently in other languages, in this respect?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe someone can advise on this one:</p>
<p>Most technical writing, especially instruction manuals, should be written in the active voice to avoid confusion.  For example &#8220;Check the checkbox&#8221;, instead of &#8220;The check box should be checked&#8221; (by you in this step? or should be like that when you got to that step? if it isn&#8217;t, do you have to go back a step?)</p>
<p>A technical writer I worked with would not use the active voice because she said it sounded rude.  Her native language was not English &#8211; is the active/passive voice used differently in other languages, in this respect?</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Grisanzio</title>
		<link>http://dervala.net/2005/06/20/strong-language/comment-page-1/#comment-1227</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Grisanzio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2005 13:58:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dervala.net/?p=707#comment-1227</guid>
		<description>Really nice thoughts here. I've had the exact same experience working with the engineers at Sun Microsystems and the scientists at Tufts University.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Really nice thoughts here. I&#8217;ve had the exact same experience working with the engineers at Sun Microsystems and the scientists at Tufts University.</p>
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		<title>By: Dervala</title>
		<link>http://dervala.net/2005/06/20/strong-language/comment-page-1/#comment-1226</link>
		<dc:creator>Dervala</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:49:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dervala.net/?p=707#comment-1226</guid>
		<description>Mark, thank you very much for the pointer. I've heard of The Underground Grammarian, but never read the books. I'm looking forward to them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark, thank you very much for the pointer. I&#8217;ve heard of The Underground Grammarian, but never read the books. I&#8217;m looking forward to them.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Hughes</title>
		<link>http://dervala.net/2005/06/20/strong-language/comment-page-1/#comment-1225</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Hughes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:45:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dervala.net/?p=707#comment-1225</guid>
		<description>An unusually high number of engineers I've met hold as their writing ideal Richard Mitchell's Underground Grammarian (http://www.sourcetext.com/grammarian/).

"After years of fussing about the pathetic, baffled language of students, I realized that it was not in their labored writings that bad language dwelt.  /This/, this inane gabble, this was bad language.  Evil language.  Here was a man taking the public money for the work of his mind and darkening counsel by words without understanding."
-Richard Mitchell, Less than Words Can Say</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An unusually high number of engineers I&#8217;ve met hold as their writing ideal Richard Mitchell&#8217;s Underground Grammarian (http://www.sourcetext.com/grammarian/).</p>
<p>&#8220;After years of fussing about the pathetic, baffled language of students, I realized that it was not in their labored writings that bad language dwelt.  /This/, this inane gabble, this was bad language.  Evil language.  Here was a man taking the public money for the work of his mind and darkening counsel by words without understanding.&#8221;<br />
-Richard Mitchell, Less than Words Can Say</p>
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		<title>By: Dervala</title>
		<link>http://dervala.net/2005/06/20/strong-language/comment-page-1/#comment-1224</link>
		<dc:creator>Dervala</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:42:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dervala.net/?p=707#comment-1224</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Claus! 

John, I sound like I'm on some pyramid-selling scheme, but the Joseph Williams book I mentioned before, _Style: Towards Clarity and Grace_ talks sense about the passive voice (and much else). The book deals with all kinds of writing, not just the New Yorkerish stuff that most guides deal with, and so he's realistic about its usefulness in some contexts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Claus! </p>
<p>John, I sound like I&#8217;m on some pyramid-selling scheme, but the Joseph Williams book I mentioned before, <em>Style: Towards Clarity and Grace</em> talks sense about the passive voice (and much else). The book deals with all kinds of writing, not just the New Yorkerish stuff that most guides deal with, and so he&#8217;s realistic about its usefulness in some contexts.</p>
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		<title>By: Claus</title>
		<link>http://dervala.net/2005/06/20/strong-language/comment-page-1/#comment-1223</link>
		<dc:creator>Claus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:54:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dervala.net/?p=707#comment-1223</guid>
		<description>The "long letter, no time to make it short" quote has been attributed to an awful number of people, but is in fact by Blaise Pascal.
Details on the origin here:
http://www.classy.dk/log/archive/001074.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The &#8220;long letter, no time to make it short&#8221; quote has been attributed to an awful number of people, but is in fact by Blaise Pascal.<br />
Details on the origin here:<br />
<a href="http://www.classy.dk/log/archive/001074.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.classy.dk/log/archive/001074.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: John Rynne</title>
		<link>http://dervala.net/2005/06/20/strong-language/comment-page-1/#comment-1222</link>
		<dc:creator>John Rynne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jun 2005 06:57:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dervala.net/?p=707#comment-1222</guid>
		<description>Those Orwell rules are great, but I think he is too heavy on the passive voice. There are times when the passive voice is the only way to go (engineering and scientific writing, to quote just one example). 
I am a translator. I had a co-worker once who would go to inordinate lengths to avoid using the passive voice ("because you shouldn't") despite it being the best solution in the circumstances.

And Orwell's rule 6 isn't a sufficient let-out, I'm afraid, because the results may be ridiculous without being "outright barbarous" (maybe "barbarous" meant something different way back when).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Those Orwell rules are great, but I think he is too heavy on the passive voice. There are times when the passive voice is the only way to go (engineering and scientific writing, to quote just one example). <br />
I am a translator. I had a co-worker once who would go to inordinate lengths to avoid using the passive voice (&#8220;because you shouldn&#8217;t&#8221;) despite it being the best solution in the circumstances.</p>
<p>And Orwell&#8217;s rule 6 isn&#8217;t a sufficient let-out, I&#8217;m afraid, because the results may be ridiculous without being &#8220;outright barbarous&#8221; (maybe &#8220;barbarous&#8221; meant something different way back when).</p>
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		<title>By: Dervala</title>
		<link>http://dervala.net/2005/06/20/strong-language/comment-page-1/#comment-1221</link>
		<dc:creator>Dervala</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Jun 2005 10:41:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dervala.net/?p=707#comment-1221</guid>
		<description>That's also been attributed (in a slightly different form) to Oscar Wilde and Mark Twain, among others. I've always believed it was George Bernard Shaw.

Jolyon, I'm a fan of the Orwell essay and have written about it here before. It did make me laugh to see Joseph Williams neat dissection of Orwell's failure to follow his own advice in that same essay. Oh well. We love him for his moral courage, if not always for his sentences.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s also been attributed (in a slightly different form) to Oscar Wilde and Mark Twain, among others. I&#8217;ve always believed it was George Bernard Shaw.</p>
<p>Jolyon, I&#8217;m a fan of the Orwell essay and have written about it here before. It did make me laugh to see Joseph Williams neat dissection of Orwell&#8217;s failure to follow his own advice in that same essay. Oh well. We love him for his moral courage, if not always for his sentences.</p>
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